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That didn’t take long. Just a couple months into Trump’s term he’s reached his Augusto Pinochet phase — threatening to ‘disappear’ people into concentration camps in El Salvador.
Actually, that’s not quite accurate. He’s not just threatening — he already has started disappearing people to these gulags with no due process.
What a disappointment Rubio turned out to be. I thought perhaps he might be the one sane person in Trump’s cabinet who wouldn’t go along with these insane ideas. I remember him speaking out against some repressive regimes, but now he’s helping craft deals with them.
Apparently there are 156 inmates per cell. Two toilets and washing basin per cell. No showers. Washing basins are tubs of water that everyone uses. Lights are always on in the cells, in the solitary confinement cells the lights are always off. This is a torture concentration camp, and the inmates are not expected to ever be released. CECOT is a death camp. Salvadoran officials proudly claim that “no one who enters ever leaves”
Even if you came to this country illegally, you are still entitled to human rights. Or is that not a thing in the USA anymore? And it looks like they’ve sent at least one non-violent immigrant to this gulag because he had a tattoo that was mistaken for some kind of gang symbol. But of course without due process how would they know that. What a lovely policy – just deport people that look suspicious to a gulag. Ask question later (or don’t, more likely).
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz032xjyyzyo
But this insanity is not limited to foreigners or illegals either. As Rubio explained, “[the El Salvador President] also offered to do the same for dangerous criminals currently in custody and serving their sentences in the United States even though they’re U.S. citizens or legal residents.”
And Trump is the cheerleading this:
When I was growing up, I had a friend who’s family escaped from Pinochet’s regime. I remember thinking, thank god I didn’t live in a country like that. But here we are.
I’m all for tightening the borders. But I sincerely hope you all realize how insane this gulag shit is and speak out against it. This isn’t a left or right issue. This is evil.
NO MALARKEY
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Your sensitivity to the human rights element of this problem does you credit, and I mean that without irony. But there was a Newsweek/NYT columnist, Anna Quindlen, who used to write columns that ended, I don’t know what the solution is, but this surely isn’t it. The formulation drove me nuts. I’m afraid you’ve joined that club.
So you’ve got these Venezuelan gang members, extremely dangerous individuals, who came to the country illegally for the purposes of social predation. You’ve identified and arrested them. What are you going to do?
Try them here and imprison them? Great. Not only expensive – btw, it is dangerous as a juror to participate in those trials. -but the last thing the beleaguered American prison system needs is another well organized ethic gang. The Aryan Brotherhood, Black Guerilla Family, Mexican Mafia and La Familia – all thrive in prison.
Plus you satisfy the ultimate bottom line. They stay in the US.
Deport them to Mexico or Canada? Are you kidding? You think those nations want these problems?
Deport them to Venezuela? Venezuela won’t take them back.
So, faute de mieux, you end up making a deal with an impoverished nation willing to house them for the money. It’s the same reason Obama ended up droning Awlaki, referenced above. It has all sorts of negatives, but it’s the best of the bad alternatives.
And, whether I appear cold blooded or not, from a deterrence perspective, it IS useful. Knowing you won’t end up in a US prison with various civilized practices, but rotting in a foreign hell hole, is a fairly good motivator not to come – illegally – in the first place.
Because the whole mess began with excessive tolerance.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
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GR as usual gets it.
Gangs don’t fight fair. Gangs don’t do “human rights.” And yes, we have to be careful not to become the monster while fighting them, but there is a threshold at which we simply have to act.
I am unmoved by extreme action against organized criminals engaged in murder, human trafficking, drug trafficking, and intimidation. It’s really the only way. They have no shower and have to share a toilet at the same ratio as an airport? Dios mio. Shouldn’t have murdered that judge and pimped out an immigrant 13 year old
We are being destroyed by our own civility. Worse, we are letting communities that we don’t live in be destroyed by our own civility. Cheap virtue.
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Sic transit gloria mundi (so shut up and get back to work) -
In 2016, El Salvador recorded well over 5,000 homicides, one of the highest rates in the world. Seven years later, they were the Latin American country with the lowest murder rate, 114 in all of 2024, a 98% decrease. El Presidente’s approval rate has fluctuated between 89.9% and 94.3%. During COVID, it dipped all the way down to 80%, heaven forfend.
Rapes, 60% drop just from 2023 to 2024. Robberies down 45%, Extortion down 48%. Thefts are persistent but dropped by 22.41%.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
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And how do you know if they really are criminals? Is this just a “trust me bro” scenario? Even criminals are allowed human rights.
We don’t even know if these are all criminals. They are simply alleged criminals. And even criminals are entitled to human rights and due process. Or do we as a country not believe in that anymore?
GR, I’m surprised to see you on the wrong side of this. As you well know, there are ways of keeping court proceedings anonymous.
You can withhold juror names, you can keep juror addresses, workplaces, or demographic data confidential, you can sequester the jury.
A court can seal proceedings or certain filings to protect the identity of witnesses, victims, informants, even parties in civil cases (e.g., Doe v. Roe cases).
Judges can issue protective orders under Rule 26(c) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure or equivalent state rules.
There are laws and procedures for keeping details of the judges confidential, as well.
The U.S. Constitution deliberately uses the term “person” rather than “citizen” in key provisions such as the Due Process Clauses of the 5th and 14th Amendments, the Equal Protection Clause, and the 4th, 6th, and 1st Amendments. These rights—protection against unlawful searches and seizures, the right to a fair trial, freedom of speech and religion, and equal protection under the law—apply to anyone on U.S. soil, regardless of immigration status.
The U.S. Supreme Court has consistently upheld this interpretation. In Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886), the Court confirmed that constitutional protections extend to all persons within the country. In Zadvydas v. Davis (2001), it ruled that even undocumented immigrants cannot be detained indefinitely without due process. While non-citizens don’t have full political rights like voting or holding certain public offices, they are still protected from arbitrary detention, discrimination, and abuse. U.S. courts have repeatedly affirmed that the rule of law does not depend on citizenship.
NO MALARKEY
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Sad story about one of the disappeared people. If you read the story, he is a gay make-up artist with some tattoos. Does that sound like a gang member to you? Maybe he is. I doubt it, but how would we actually know without a hearing?
He waited months in detention for an immigration court hearing on March 13, but instead was put one of three planes with 237 other migrants and deported.
Another story about a guy with an “Autism Awareness” tattoo sent to this gulag. Is that the new profile of a Venezuelan gang member?
https://www.irishstar.com/news/us-news/trump-sends-innocent-man-el-34945042
the sister of Neri Jose Alvarado Borges—a 24-year-old of Venezuelan descent deported to El Salvador this month—said relatives suspect that Immigration and Custom Enforcement officials used his tattoos, one showing the name of his autistic younger brother and another showing a rainbow-colored ribbon of the autism acceptance movement, to justify his illegal ousting from the US.
Montilla said her brother wasn’t in any gang. Instead, he had been a psychology student who dropped out of school to come to America nine months ago due to the upheaval of the Venezuelan economy.
Are you guys seriously arguing this is not only ok, but good?
NO MALARKEY
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Deicy Aldana, 26, said her husband, 26-year-old Colombian-Venezuelan dual citizen Andres Guillermo Morales, had a legal work permit in the United States as part of his U.S. asylum application when he was arrested by ICE in early February. His work authorization was verified independently by Reuters.
Aldana shared paperwork showing her husband, who has a Colombian mother and was raised along the two countries’ border, has no criminal convictions in Colombia. Reuters confirmed the authenticity of the document with its own records search.Reuters was not able to immediately find any U.S. criminal convictions for Morales either.Morales, who worked for an air conditioning company and then a cement company, had multiple tattoos, Aldana said, but none were connected to any gang. He had his parents’ names on his arms, with a clock next to his father’s, as well as a star and music notes on his neck and a Bible verse on his ribs.NO MALARKEY
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I’m not on that much on any side. The problem since 2016 is that coverage of Trump is a combination of apocalyptic- the Republic is ending, if not the world – and categorical imperative – anything, ANYTHING, is justified in opposition to Trump. (That’s how sensible people end up applauding cabals by the national police force against the sitting President, a much more dangerous precedent than anything Trump has done.)
Getting to specifics, no one seems to dispute these individuals had illegally entered the country, which means they are deportable. After that, everything descends into murk.
I do tend to side with the correctness of the judgments here, not out of any great faith in the Trump Administration, but for practical reasons. I’m talking about money. It is expensive to gather prisoners together, charter a plane and fly them several hundred miles abroad, and I am not even counting the payment due to El Salvador. If you think all this happened by random selection, you are welcome to that opinion. It does not jibe with common sense.
(I hate to disillusion you further about my lack of wisdom, but I had pretty much the same opinion of Guantanamo back in the day. It was prodigiously expensive to identify an individual, fly him halfway across the world, and then house him for an indefinite period of time in a federal medium security prison. If you thought for a second that the Bush Administration was picking up random street peddlers and spending that kind of money, you are welcome to that opinion. It is not how police agencies work. Money matters.)
That said, I would very much like to know the process by which the determinations were made, and why they were not tested by a timely habeas petition a long time before the planes departed. No one seems willing or able to report the actual detail on that.
Finally, the reliance of news services on the statements of interested relatives abroad makes me roll my eyes. It’s like the parents of a mass shooter who tell you he always was a good boy. Are you under the impression that gang members do not also hold blue collar jobs? Because many do. At the end of the day, there is no dispute that all of these individuals were here illegally, which somewhat undercuts the upward mobility narrative.
Conclusion? Tentative, as it must be. If the determination of gang affiliation was fairly made, as noted in my first post, transportation to a foreign prison is the best of the bad alternatives, since Venezuela refused to repatriate these individuals. Nuff said.
I wouldn't give you two cents for all your fancy rules if, behind them, they didn't have a little bit of plain, ordinary, everyday kindness - yeah, and a little looking out for the other fella, too.
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We as a country should not be violating human rights and deporting people to gulags in the first place, much less because it’s too expensive to give them a hearing. These guys were already being detained. It took Reuters about ten seconds to verify the legal status, criminal record, and other detail. Is legal justice now too expensive? Should we dismantle our criminal justice system and fire all the prosecutors and defense lawyers, as well?
You mention Guantanamo. At least with Guantanamo the U.S. government kept the detainees on a base we control. That meant the courts got involved and there was some level of public scrutiny. Lawyers could visit. The media could report. Human rights groups were watching. I guess that’s the point of El Salvador — Guantanamo was too nice, apparently, if you no longer believe in human rights.
With our new arrangement we can just vanish people into a system with no rules, no recourse, no transparency.
By way, you mention that nobody seems to dispute that these guys entered the country illegally. That’s actually not true:
A 35-year-old former professional soccer player, Jerce legally entered the U.S. in 2024 seeking asylum after reportedly being detained and tortured by the Maduro regime. Despite a pending asylum hearing scheduled for April 17, 2025, he was deported based on a Real Madrid tattoo, which authorities misinterpreted as a gang symbol.
After fleeing persecution in Venezuela to Colombia, “E.M.” and his girlfriend were granted refugee status in the U.S. Upon arrival in Houston on January 8, he was detained due to tattoos—a crown, a soccer ball, and a palm tree—that were suspected gang symbols. Despite no criminal record in Venezuela or Colombia, he was deported to El Salvador on March 15 and imprisoned.
The gay Venezuelan asylum seeker and makeup artist I mentioned –Andry — legally entered the U.S. seeking protection from persecution. Despite no gang affiliations, he was deported to El Salvador and incarcerated in a mega-prison.
A 26-year-old barber, Franco entered the U.S. in 2023, requesting asylum. He was detained during a routine check-in with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in February 2025 and later deported, despite documents indicating he had no criminal record.
You distrust the media, and think maybe those guys are actually worse than portrayed. But you have no evidence. Because how could you? They weren’t given a hearing. Who is even making these decisions?
You don’t want to believe the media? Ok. Give them a hearing and believe the courts, a judge, or the administrative process that concludes affirmatively, with some evidence, that they are gang members.
NO MALARKEY
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Oops. ICE Admits to “administrative error”.
In its court filing on Monday, the Trump administration said ICE “was aware of his protection from removal to El Salvador,” but still deported Abrego Garcia “because of an administrative error.”
Who could have seen this coming /s. I have an idea: maybe give someone some due process before sending to a gulag.
The administration said it can’t doing anything about it now since he’s in custody of a foreign country — and has no intention to do anything, regardless.
NO MALARKEY
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Although none of you seem to care about due process and human rights (though I give GR credit for mild hesitation), at least the conservative Supreme Court seems to have some residual sense and ruled unanimously in favor of one of these kidnapping victims:
US top court instructs Trump to return man wrongly deported to El Salvador
We’ll see what happens with the other cases. I don’t think this case really addresses due process per se, and may just be a narrow victory.
As a side note to anyone that actually cares (I hope you do), a CBS News investigation showed that 75% of the 238 Venezuelan migrants deported had no known criminal history in the U.S. or abroad . Similarly, a Bloomberg review indicated that about 90% lacked U.S. criminal records. They were apparently identified by a guy who had been fired from his law enforcement job for lying. But got a job with I.C.E. And these victims were sent to this deathcamp on his “expert” opinion.
More to come, I’m sure, in one of the most despicable chapters of US history.
Am I really the only person who cares about this? Because now would be a great time to speak up if you think this is actually an insane thing for the US government to be doing. Are some of those guys bad? Yeah, probably. But we don’t deport people to death camps without a modicum of due process. I don’t understand how that is a controversial opinion by the educated people on this board. I’d love to hear from someone here who has second thoughts about this. It would restore a bit of my faith in the humanity here.
NO MALARKEY
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Presuming that everything you say is fully and completely accurate and that the 60 minutes investigation is fully and completely accurate, I fully denounce deportations of non-criminals to prisons, period, full-stop.
I also fully denounce countries that refuse to accept their citizens who have illegally emigrated to the United States. BYT, will you also denounce that practice?
Audaces fortuna iuvat
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Thank you Mick and Hurlburt88. I know I’m not a model of “How to win friends and influence people” on this board sometimes, but I’m glad that people on whatever side can agree this is fucked up. I don’t see this as a left or right issue. We need to enforce our borders, but not at the cost of due process and sending people to these torture / death camps beyond our jurisdiction.
By the way, Mick, yes I am all for deportations when warranted. I am not some kind of “open borders” guy. I never have been. As David Frum accurately mused in 2019, “If Liberals Won’t Enforce Borders, Fascists Will“.
At the risk of sounding paranoid, Trump is now talking about sending US citizens to these death camps: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/homegrowns-trump-doubles-sending-convicted-us-citizens-foreign/story?id=120802863
I said homegrowns are next, the homegrowns. You gotta build about five more places.
“Bukele was heard responding “alright” and others in the room laughed.
“It’s not big enough,” Trump added.
If you think this is just an ad hoc “joke” or one-off statement, it’s not. The Trump administration floated this idea about a week ago, as well: https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-blog/trump-leavitt-deporting-us-citizens-el-salvador-sotomayor-rcna200299
Here’s to hoping these US citizens at least get due process — and are not just rounded up because they are allegedly “bad people”. But Trump is refusing to follow the 9 – 0 ruling by the Supreme Court, so who knows. The rule of law seems to be optional now.
NO MALARKEY
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Nope, not warranted. It is obviously a clerical error, and she’s not the only U. S. citizen who received one. They need to tighten up their administrative ship.
Curious to know why she and the Boston-based immigration attorney received the same e-mail. Sabotage? Maybe. If I’m a Lefty working a low-level data steward job, I can really embarrass the administration if I add the names of citizens to a deportation database.
Audaces fortuna iuvat
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Mick, seems like a lot clerical errors are happening. Letter to Harvard and another DoD messaging melodrama as recent examples.
A different take on the Harvard dispute. It is fascinating to me that so many businesses and universities just rolled over and spread their collective legs when Biden (aka someone in the WH) issued Executive Order 13985. While the EO did not explicitly state there would be a loss of funding, there was an implicit threat of less favorable treatment in competitive grant programs with a potential loss of funding.
Just my opinion, Trump would have been better off to quietly end EO 13985 and let the DoJ loose, asking universities such as Harvard to explain how their DEI programs, which offer special rights and protections to a small group of individuals, is not a violation of the 1964 Civil Rights act.
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