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Think I’ll just leave this right here…
Majority of Voters Think Trump Was a Better President Than Biden: Poll (newsweek.com)
“A hypothetical 2024 matchup also gave him an edge over Biden, indicating there is potential for him to win.”
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While I don’t trust Newsweek at all, I’m not at all surprised by this “news.”
We had an executive who rankled everybody but got (good) things done (if you don’t think renegotiating NAFTA, lowering the corporate tax rate, and putting China on notice weren’t good things, take another look). Now we have a doddering fool who can’t get things done, and who happens to rankle people despite being a “decent guy.”
I’ve typed this to you guys before: Trump, while hated and despicable, was for America despite being accused of weakening America. Biden, despite being touted as a statesman and “true American,” has generally taken actions that have weakened America and its alliances.
It’s truly astounding to see the contrast and to live the cognitive dissonance.
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Sic transit gloria mundi (so shut up and get back to work) -
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What were Don Trump’s really negative policies? He talked tough on the border but the current situation is far far worse. He slapped tariffs on China but those haven’t been removed. His COVID response was no more criticizable than those proposed by others.
The people who were most upset about Trump were those who were most aligned with the statist / academic mafia. I don’t know anybody who is in the for-profit world who really disagrees with the policy agenda of the Trump administration. I know plenty who hated the persona and voted against him.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want him to be president again and believe that his work undermining the electoral process is despicable, but Biden proves we can do worse.
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Sic transit gloria mundi (so shut up and get back to work)
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There have been 2x as many American COVID deaths on Biden’s watch as on Trump’s watch (dating from election results). 242,303 up to the 2020 election, 485,407 afterward (and counting). Waiting for a White House reporter to ask Jen Psaki to confirm that.
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Probably related to the fact that many Republicans won’t get vaccinated. The latest data from KFF indicates more than a third are “Definitely not” getting vaccinated, will only get vaccinated if required, or taking a wait and see approach. You can lead them to water but can’t make them drink.
You can still get Covid if you’re vaccinated, but the death rate, as you probably know, is a tiny fraction of those that are unvaccinated.
Lack of vaccinations, plus the emergence of the delta variant caused rates to rise. Per the CDC:
the country appeared to be on its way to emerging from the pandemic early this summer, when new infections plunged below 12,000 a day and deaths fell below 200 a day.
But then the highly transmissible delta variant became the nation’s dominant strain, fueling another wave that saw cases and deaths rise and many hospitals get overwhelmed. Southern states, where vaccination rates were the lowest, were hit especially hard.
I remember PL said this political divide was some sort of “trope” that should be disregarded. But at this point the evidence is hard to ignore.
NO MALARKEY
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A Gallup poll from a couple weeks ago confirms the KFF survey:
There are also other studies correlating counties that voted for Trump with having much lower rates of vaccination. Similarly, counties in California that voted to recall Newsom had much lower rates.
Why are Republicans hesitant? I’m sure there’s some “my freedom” element and some correlation with not trusting the government. But as I said several months ago, there’s also a lot of anti-vax propaganda coming from right wing media — and not just the fringe, but mainstream conservative media like Fox.
Long story short, I don’t really care what Biden or Psaki have to say about it at this point. I’m sure you can nitpick about things they could have done better, but if I suggest, ask, or beg you to do something — and you have ample time and opportunity to do it — and you still refuse, the fault is not mine.
NO MALARKEY
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BTD, why don’t you quit pushing the political aspect of vaccination and work on what will actually get people vaccinated? If it was truly a political issue, you’d see 90-10 splits both ways, not a majority of Republicans vaccinated.
The Kaiser Family Foundation? Who has been pushing this political polarizing angle despite knowing that the correlation was garbage compared to age, income, education level (both ends), and other factors? You mean these guys?
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs//totals?id=D000039180&cycle=A
Also, have you seen the non-KFF data (instead of survey numbers) for the young, the uneducated (and overeducated), union members, and minority communities (other than Asians)? Compared the R coefficients to political party? And, given your understanding of how these majority unvaccinated groups voted, do you really believe the 90+ number? You know what Democrats are really good at? Virtue signaling to strangers in a survey.
The messaging from the governments has been counterproductive garbage. Trying to get minorities vaccinated with animated raps and celebrities? Telling people the unvaccinated are a danger to the vaccinated? What does that tell the unvaccinated? That the vaccine doesn’t work. And then the vaccinated who believe that the unvaccinated are a danger to them… well, then the vaccinated are a danger to them, as are their kids, as are… everyone (except undocumented migrants). All stick and no carrot isn’t getting the unvaccinated vaccinated. The messaging has to be clear, the vaccines reduce the chances of hospitalization and death. You and your family get vaccinated, you can go places without a mask. Is it 100%? No. But will it allow you and your family to have Thanksgiving and Christmas together. Also, quit listening to Fauci. His ego (and Disney+) is writing checks his brain can’t cash.
You going to bring up science? Then why mandate that people with natural antibodies get vaccinated? There’s no scientific basis for trying to trigger an immune response in people who have superior protections for… no reason? The only logical reason for mandating vaccines and not accounting for natural antibodies is because they want to eliminate the control. Also, we can test for natural antibodies, so it can’t be faked. (My blood tests distinguish between my vaccine antibodies and natural antibodies). So why not exempt the already infected from the vaccine? (By your logic, by the way, more Republicans got infected / died pre-vaccine, anyway).
The known side-effects are treatable, with the proper monitoring and are better than the cytokine storm that leads to hospitalization and death. We have better therapeutics, and know more than before. Things are looking up, and will improve with your help.
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rodgepodge: I suppose you should ask Mick why he chose to politicize it. I was responding to him when he implied it was Biden’s fault that cases had risen and made a snide comment about Psaki. You think this post from Mick wasn’t political?
“There have been 2x as many American COVID deaths on Biden’s watch as on Trump’s watch (dating from election results). 242,303 up to the 2020 election, 485,407 afterward (and counting). Waiting for a White House reporter to ask Jen Psaki to confirm that.”
I didn’t say a word about Covid for months until he posted this.
You don’t like my KFF numbers, but I also cited Gallup. The latest Pew poll has similar results. And anecdotally I’ve seen many clips and heard of many conservative talking heads pushing an anti vax agenda. I haven’t come across that on the left, except for some fringe folks. I mean your own post finished by explaining how vaccinations aren’t so important for many people… So yes, I believe the ~90% number. And I also believe the much lower number for conservatives.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, don’t. Good luck to you.
NO MALARKEY
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Things I’ve heard recently:
Covid cases and deaths have been over counted, perhaps materially by CDC.
cases are dropping materially in Southern states, specifically Florida.
Covid results have been materially and adversely impacted by CDC’s lack of attention to therapeutics.
There are reasons to question the efficacy of the government’s vaccine guidance. The lethality of the CCP virus remains concentrated amongst the aged and those with pre existing conditions.
If the above is true, Vaccine mandates should not be broad. Instead targeted specifically and narrowly at at risk populations.
Mandates that adversely impact the healthcare and transportation sectors are fraught with negative and unintended consequences.
Here's a toast with one last pour, may it last forever and a minute more;
Good fortune seems to you have sung, to live and love way past long -
“Covid cases and deaths have been over counted, perhaps materially by CDC.”
The Economist runs their own model for all countries and regions in the world and compares their results to the official data of each country (apparently the CDC for the U.S. based on a footnote). Long story short, they seem to think the CDC is materially undercounting the deaths.
I don’t think there’s any conspiracy to make the numbers look bad. If you compare the US to other countries, we actually look reasonably good (relatively speaking).
You can quibble with the numbers, but if you’re suggesting it’s not such a big deal then I think that’s incorrect. Even using the lower numbers, the number of deaths has surpassed the combined total deaths from all major US wars.
And the problems extend far beyond deaths. People who contract Covid often develop chronic and serious health issues.
True, it affects people more as they are older and I am not going to argue about the guidance or mandates. I have various opinions about it — some of which may agree with yours (possibly). But I think it’s clear adults should be vaccinated.
NO MALARKEY
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Contra Costa County’s rates of the virus. Yep, it’s the brown and black republicans that have for months been causing the most recent surge. . . .
https://www.coronavirus.cchealth.org/overview
Interestingly, the county published vaccine rate by ethnicity, but alas, that has gone away. Wonder why?
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[quote quote=5387]rodgepodge: I suppose you should ask Mick why he chose to politicize it. I was responding to him when he implied it was Biden’s fault that cases had risen and made a snide comment about Psaki. You think this post from Mick wasn’t political?
I didn’t say a word about Covid for months until he posted this. You don’t like my KFF numbers, but I also cited Gallup. The latest Pew poll has similar results. And anecdotally I’ve seen many clips and heard of many conservative talking heads pushing an anti vax agenda. I haven’t come across that on the left, except for some fringe folks. I mean your own post finished by explaining how vaccinations aren’t so important for many people… So yes, I believe the ~90% number. And I also believe the much lower number for conservatives. If you don’t want to get vaccinated, don’t. Good luck to you.[/quote]
Huh. Calling the President to account for bad COVID policy means that what, we start the blame game? AND you’re saying it’s a one variable problem? Quit pushing a narrative that 1) isn’t solving the problem, and 2) only demonstrates that you’re unusually susceptible to accepting political polarization and blame, rather than looking at the underlying data for a complex problem and trying to find a solution.
You keep citing survey results, but the actual data on who is vaccinated tells a different story that is correlated with political affiliation, but significantly more strongly correlated with other factors. Then you throw out the “cherry picking” argument? Are you serious?
No leftist vaccine hesitancy? You mean this:
Here’s a mashup of VACCINE MISINFORMATION from Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
Does Jen Psaki want Big Tech to CENSOR this?pic.twitter.com/vqnucmZjnj
— Kyle Martinsen (@KyleMartinsen_) July 16, 2021
or this (reinforcing my point about the overeducated):
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/what-do-lefty-anti-vaxxers-do-now/620092/
Also, don’t indulge in the Orwellian conflation of “anti-vax” and being against vaccine mandates.
“If you don’t want to get vaccinated, don’t. Good luck to you.”
Nice ad hominem, so I’ll return the favor. You clearly lack reading comprehension. I said in my post I have vaccine antibodies as confirmed by blood tests. If your defense is oh, I meant everybody, not you, then why do you care to try to blame conservatives? My point is that we need to quit using divisive language (political or otherwise) and enact good COVID policy to get people vaccinated, to protect the people who need to be protected, and get life back to normal. We don’t need to trample on civil liberties and the Constitution to do it.
When Trump was President, the media would post things like, “X number of deaths under Trump.” Or COVID has now caused “X number of 9/11s.” I didn’t see you being critical when that was happening. Now that the parties have shifted, now you don’t like the casualty counting? Have you watched Psaki struggle / deflect lately? You never made a snarky comment about Kaleigh McEnany (who to her credit at least was well prepared). Maybe you have buyer’s remorse because you (and the American people) were sold vague solutions to a complex problem, and now that it turns out even with three vaccines and better therapeutics, the administration hasn’t “shut down the virus,” and in fact things have gotten arguably worse?
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@rogpodge: I had some family in town and was also working full-time, so finally getting a chance to reply to this …
My reading comprehension is fine. I did observe your comment about antibodies, but I took it to mean you had been infected with COVID since most folks who receive a vaccination wouldn’t otherwise get a subsequent blood test to verify antibodies in their blood. I’m sure there are exceptions and perhaps you are one of them. If you were vaccinated I’m glad to hear it. But to be fair, you were being a bit vague about it. You’re welcome to correct my assumptions about the source of your antibodies.
I realize CNN and any number of other left leaning media vilified Trump about the number of deaths for many months. It was political then and was political of Mick to do the same. Quite honestly, if Biden and Harris really were downplaying the virus or their policies were the source of the problem, then I would agree with Mick. But the numbers belie a different story. You can choose to tease out some different conclusion from the data, but it’s simply a fact that conservative adults in large numbers have been hesitant to get vaccinated and not so much on the liberal side. Whatever the reason, it’s quite a stretch to blame that on Biden.
Also, the mashup you posted was mostly out-of-context clips from before the vaccines were rolled out. The context: they were saying they wouldn’t simply trust the word of Trump – the guy who suggested injecting bleach – but said they would be happy to get vaccinated if there was a scientific consensus that the vaccines were safe. And indeed both Biden and Harris subsequently and very publicly did get vaccinated to encourage others to get it – quite the opposite of vaccine fear-mongering that your clips were trying to imply.
On the other hand, there are a lot of conservatives pushing an antivax agenda. Here’s a mashup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEJufOyAbis
You also suggested that I am conflating being anti-vax with vaccine mandates. Actually, I believe it’s just the opposite. I do distinguish between the two. But I believe many conservatives are the ones conflating these two issues. They hear from Fox News and other outlets about the “Orwellian” government (a term you used yourself) and we see in the data and in endless real-life examples that many of them are also anti-vax or fearful of getting vaccinated. I can’t prove they are conflating the two issues, but the Venn Diagram of the two groups no doubt has a significant overlap.
When Trump (to his credit) suggested his supporters should get vaccinated he was booed at rally in Alabama: https://goodwordnews.com/trump-booed-at-rally-in-alabama-after-telling-supporters-to-get-vaccinated/
Something similar happened to Lindsay Graham: https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-shout-down-rep-lindsey-graham-for-pushing-vaccine
NO MALARKEY
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@rogpodge: I had some family in town and was also working full-time, so finally getting a chance to reply to this …
My reading comprehension is fine. I did observe your comment about antibodies, but I took it to mean you had been infected with COVID since most folks who receive a vaccination wouldn’t otherwise get a subsequent blood test to verify antibodies in their blood. I’m sure there are exceptions and perhaps you are one of them. If you were vaccinated I’m glad to hear it. But to be fair, you were being a bit vague about it. You’re welcome to correct my assumptions about the source of your antibodies.
I realize CNN and any number of other left leaning media vilified Trump about the number of deaths for many months. It was political then and was political of Mick to do the same. Quite honestly, if Biden and Harris really were downplaying the virus or their policies were the source of the problem, then I would agree with Mick. But the numbers belie a different story. You can choose to tease out some different conclusion from the data, but it’s simply a fact that conservative adults in large numbers have been hesitant to get vaccinated and not so much on the liberal side. Whatever the reason, it’s quite a stretch to blame that on Biden.
Also, the mashup you posted was mostly out-of-context clips from before the vaccines were rolled out. The context: they were saying they wouldn’t simply trust the word of Trump – the guy who suggested injecting bleach – but said they would be happy to get vaccinated if there was a scientific consensus that the vaccines were safe. And indeed both Biden and Harris subsequently and very publicly did get vaccinated to encourage others to get it – quite the opposite of vaccine fear-mongering that your clips were trying to imply.
On the other hand, there are a lot of conservatives pushing an antivax agenda. Here’s a mashup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEJufOyAbis
You also suggested that I am conflating being anti-vax with vaccine mandates. Actually, I believe it’s just the opposite. I do distinguish between the two. But I believe many conservatives are the ones conflating these two issues. They hear from Fox News and other outlets about the “Orwellian” government (a term you used yourself) and we see in the data and in endless real-life examples that many of them are also anti-vax or fearful of getting vaccinated. I can’t prove they are conflating the two issues, but the Venn Diagram of the two groups no doubt has a significant overlap.
When Trump (to his credit) suggested his supporters should get vaccinated he was booed at rally in Alabama: https://goodwordnews.com/trump-booed-at-rally-in-alabama-after-telling-supporters-to-get-vaccinated/
Something similar happened to Lindsay Graham: https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-shout-down-rep-lindsey-graham-for-pushing-vaccine
NO MALARKEY
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BTD
Ugh.
“I did observe your comment about antibodies, but I took it to mean you had been infected with COVID since most folks who receive a vaccination wouldn’t otherwise get a subsequent blood test to verify antibodies in their blood.”
How much clearer could I have been? “My blood tests distinguish between my vaccine antibodies and natural antibodies.” The problem with your argument and your evidence in general is that it all depends on mind reading and misinterpreting clear data and language. You created, out of nothing, a scenario where people only get blood tested to confirm natural antibodies? We’re at a point where labs test blood donations (my “blood tests,” plural), and your doctors routine labs for antibodies, in addition to voluntary blood tests for academic studies.
What is the problem that we’re talking about? The raw number of COVID deaths, right? Mick pointed out that there have now been more under Biden than under Trump, an objective truth, and made a comment about Psaki. You tried to say that it’s conservatives/Republicans’ fault because they’re the great unvaccinated. I pointed out that vaccination rates are a complex issue, and the best, most robust explanations aren’t the politically divisive ones, but complex race, age, education, and income ones. I further pointed out that the Biden / Harris administration’s messaging isn’t uniting, it’s divisive, and it isn’t effective. Then you continued to push the “it’s conservatives’ fault” media / DNC narrative. Then I cited evidence showing that it’s a complex problem, and both sides’ messaging is to blame, including early left-wing media as late as January. Then you came back with the main-stream media’s two favorite excuses: the bad stuff our side does lacks context, and it’s really Fox News’ fault.
“The context: they were saying they wouldn’t simply trust the word of Trump – the guy who suggested injecting bleach – but said they would be happy to get vaccinated if there was a scientific consensus that the vaccines were safe.”
You think this is a dunk? You have, yet again, trotted out another media-created lie that has been debunked over and over. The media made up the whole bleach thing. Show me where Trump used the word bleach? Where did that originate? Journalists. It was a complete fabrication and journalists made it up. The transcript shows he said “disinfectant,” and he meant UV light because he talked about the UV presentation just before it and mentioned “the light” during his ramble. Even Politico half-heartedly admits that “swallow bleach” was a media-generated smear. But you swallow the bleach (figuratively) whole and then regurgitate it to try to… justify what Joy Reid, Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, Joe Biden, and Kamala Harris themselves said? Just shows (again) that you’re unusually susceptible to propaganda and simply repeating MSNBC talking points.
Did you watch your Fox News mashup? Most of it was regarding forcing people to get the vaccine. Newsmax clips? Seriously, CNN? I guess I should just post Keith Olbermann clips to prove my points from now on.
Then Brianna Kehler cites a statistic that no people in L.A. County had been hospitalized who was fully vaccinated? Was that even true at the time? Let’s be clear. The COVID shot is very much like the flu shot. It’s not a vaccine in the traditional sense (dead virus shells, triggering an accurate antibody response that prevents infection). It greatly reduces the risk of hospitalization and death (and that’s great), but it isn’t the magic bullet the CNN talking heads are trying to sell to make themselves seem virtuous after eighteen months of lying to us.
There were 3,000 new cases of COVID-19 in San Diego this past week.
– 1,591 breakthrough cases
– 1,334 cases among the not fully vaccinated.
54% of cases in San Diego were from fully vaccinated individuals.— Justin Hart (@justin_hart) October 17, 2021
Again, the COVID shots work. Full-stop. They dramatically reduce the chances of hospitalization and death. But they aren’t a cure-all / true vaccine, and COVID-zero isn’t an achievable goal. Stop trying to send a different message re: vaccinated versus unvaccinated and who is a danger to who. It’s not working as a message. We need to work on convincing the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, not by political party, but based on what the data actually shows. Pushing the “it’s conservatives’ fault” narrative, or that the vaccinated / unvaccinated divide is the only reason why life hasn’t returned to normal isn’t only incorrect and divisive, it’s counter-productive.
This op-ed (with cites to evidence!) makes my point. This is a complex problem, and attempting to paint it as a one-variable political problem isn’t helping.
That being said, one-size fits all vaccine mandates aren’t helping either. So there. That’s two concrete examples of Biden / Harris policies / messaging that are garbage and not helping. I cited another example, the Biden administration’s lies about Ron Desantis being anti-vax (he’s been pro vaccine for the elderly, then the obese / those with co-morbidities, then those with other issues since the beginning of the rollout), and trying to demonize his policies. Then they took away Florida’s allotment of monoclonal antibodies for political reasons, when Florida began experiencing better outcomes than a state with the number of infections it was reporting.
Don’t get me started on masking / vaccinating kids. That’s idiotic policy being dictated by the teachers’ unions. And of course Gavin Newsom mandates vaccinations for kids as retribution for the recall effort.
Many of us said in March 2020 that overreacting to the pandemic would cause massive suffering.
We were right.
These stories are from just the past 10 days: pic.twitter.com/rnroDjUBg1
— The Robber Baron (@Robber_Baron_) October 19, 2021
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BTD:
”I realize CNN and any number of other left leaning media vilified Trump about the number of deaths for many months. It was political then and was political of Mick to do the same. Quite honestly, if Biden and Harris really were downplaying the virus or their policies were the source of the problem, then I would agree with Mick.”
If you believe this narrative, you can convince me. Please detail every accomplishment by the Biden administration attributable to the development, licensing and broad distribution of therapeutics. And please spend some time presenting the case with regard to the efficacy of generic products…as opposed to the patented Merck offering. (I think the generics run $3.00 a dose while the new Merck product is priced at $700.00.). Did I miss their good work? Do they have a super, extra, really secret Operation Warp Speed Part Deux underway?
I mean the possibility of a “Delta” variant occurrence is a surprise to no one.
So help me understand, if the administration has taken the easy route with it’s untargeted mandates, damaging the economy, the labor market & societal comity, instead of enhancing treatment options, why shouldn’t we lay the continuing deaths on the Whitehouse steps?
Here's a toast with one last pour, may it last forever and a minute more;
Good fortune seems to you have sung, to live and love way past long-
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Rogpodge: You’re right. I totally missed your vax comment. Mea culpa.
[quote quote=5425]You have, yet again, trotted out another media-created lie that has been debunked over and over. The media made up the whole bleach thing. Show me where Trump used the word bleach?[/quote]
The bleach comment was me providing the context of your “mashup” which had a clip from Kamala Harris from a year ago. She said she would get vaccinated if there was a recommendation from a credible source, but wouldn’t trust someone who recommended injecting bleach. I was paraphrasing for you since you missed the context. Here’s the full clip… And, yes, Trump didn’t use the word bleach. He talked about injecting disinfectant – a semantic difference.
Yes, it’s a complex issue, but you’re downplaying the role conservatives have played in muddying the message about getting vaccinated, mask wearing, and social distancing. I don’t think it’s simply a coincidence that most unvaccinated are conservatives. I suspect you will dismiss this, but a study was just published from U. Penn associating conservative media with a reduced willingness to engage in behaviors to prevent the spread of the virus. On the other hand, consumption of mainstream media, such as A.P. and the WSJ, was associated with greater mask wearing and greater intentions to get vaccinated.
It’s not just Newsmax or Fox. It’s talk show hosts like Dennis Prager, a very popular conservative figure, who advocates getting “natural immunity” by contracting the disease. It’s folks like Marjorie Taylor Green — popular among right wing folks — who has downplayed the number of cases, the idea that many hospitals are or have been overwhelmed by cases, and has downplayed the severity of the disease. It’s people like the four anti-vax conservative talk show hosts who subsequently died of COVID. The list on the right is too long to post here, but I’ll mention a few more:
- GOP Leader Who Fought Against Vaccine Dies After Weekslong Battle With Coronavirus
- Republican Politician Dies of COVID Complications Days After Mocking Virus
- Anti-Mask Florida Official Dies of COVID—and Takes GOP Software Secrets With Him
The list goes on… And there is an entire (misguided) website that tracks anti-vaxxers on social media that later contract the disease. They invariably tend to be conservative. You say it’s complex. And I agree. Many of these folks, for example, are white evangelicals who happen to be Republicans. But at some point it becomes a distinction without a difference when these messages get echoed on conservative media and shared on social media.
I don’t believe this is some kind of mainstream conservative belief. Everyone who works at Fox, for example, if vaccinated. And even most Republican leaders have recommended vaccinations. But it is nevertheless a real problem with conservatism and something that’s expanding beyond the fringe. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that so many other conspiratorial, anti-government things are coming out of the right wing — things like Q-Anon, Three Percenters, Proud Boys, and Oathkeepers. These things aren’t growing out of Joe Biden’s messaging. They are being fomented on the right and have been brewing long before Biden took office, including a lot of this anti-vax messaging.
I agree COVID shouldn’t be politized, but to some degree it’s impossible not to politicize it. Democrats tend to be in favor of vaccine mandates and Republicans aren’t. I think both sides are generally sincere in their beliefs, but obviously those two approaches are at odds and invariable lead to politicization.
Regarding mandates, I don’t think the issue is as black and white as you imply. The problem is that COVID has a mortality and chronic disease profile that lies in the grey area between the Bubonic Plague and “just” a typical flu. It’s not quite deadly enough for everyone to take it seriously, but has a mortality rate that is multiple times worse than a typical flu. If it was a few times more deadly or had a disease profile like smallpox there would be no debate — everyone would be deadly serious about vaccine mandates. You wouldn’t dare send your kid to school if their friends weren’t vaccinated. If it was a little less serious and closer to a typical flu I don’t think anyone, including those on the left, would be talking about vaccine mandates.
NO MALARKEY
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BTD,
I’m glad to see a more measured and better supported response.
Do you think that the media reports more on the karmic cases (people who openly resist / refuse preventative measures and get COVID) or report on the reverse (people who take every measure, but end up dying anyway)? My guess is that the media focuses more on the karmic cases than on the reverse, except in high profile cases (such as Jen Psaki, for example, but those stories go away quickly). I suspect that your anecdotal evidence is more evidence of media bias, rather than an accurate assessment of why cases continue to pile up.
Why do you think that advocating for natural immunity (i.e. Dennis Prager) is somehow wrong? Everything we know points to COVID-19 being the fifth endemic coronavirus. This is not a right / left thing.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/11/what-americas-covid-goal-now/620572/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00396-2
The science supports the idea that, if you are of an age / fitness level that you are likely to get a relatively mild infection and not require hospitalization or die, then if you get infected you are unlikely to create a burden on society. For example, science demonstrates that children’s immune systems respond quickly and efficiently to the virus, therefore they are asymptomatic or have very mild infections. This also means they are less likely to shed virus (and shed fewer viruses) than older people.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(20)30172-5/fulltext
Key part: Pooled mean SARS-CoV-2 shedding duration was positively associated with age (slope 0·304 [95% CI 0·115–0·493]; p=0·0016).
What level of “downplaying the virus” do you feel is a negative? Any downplaying of the risks? There’s the flip side, which is continuing to make policy based on fear / irrational assessments of risk that conservatives are pushing back on (especially re: kids). For example, the risk to children is very small, but Gov. Newsom wants them vaccinated with a vaccine that does not confer immunity. It’s like mandating the flu shot (versus true vaccination versus polio, whooping cough, etc., and even tetanus and other hazards). What about masking kids, closing the schools, etc., which has demonstrated severe psychological effects on children for little to no advantage?
Dear Blue Checks Trying to Figure Out How Parents Became Swing Voters,
Start here.
Kids in US lost more school than any other wealthy nation.
Losses were predominantly in Dem and purple regions.
Is it really any mystery why many see leaders differently?
Source: @unicef pic.twitter.com/Hs3OyqSbJx
— Karen Vaites (@karenvaites) November 2, 2021
A difficult slide from the CDC ACIP meeting today for 5-11 suicides as many -including @LeslieBienen and @JeanneNoble18 – were trying to get statistics on self-harm among children during CDC-supported US school closures. We wrote this piece about it. https://t.co/ljCkhEmfuh pic.twitter.com/KXU7v2t0TE
— Monica Gandhi MD, MPH (@MonicaGandhi9) November 2, 2021
That last tweet and op-ed are devastating re: child suicide. This is from Dr. Gandhi, who is pro-vaccinating children. For the record, I am not for mandating that children get vaccinated, but I am for whatever measures we can take to free them from masking and school closures. That’s also why the masks for thee, but not for me behavior of the political class is so galling to the rest of us. It’s performative, and virtue signaling, rather than effective. It’s also why I think the administration’s inconsistent messaging and constant retractions of guidance is so damaging, and why further efforts to characterize this as a Democrat / Republican issue is to make people feel better about themselves, rather than addressing the real issue. As for other, non-conservative communities that are against the vaccine mandates, bordering on “anti-vaxx,” according to the left’s definitions, please consider the following:
Protest against COVID vaccine mandate led by Inland Empire teachers and parents
That being said, one failing of both administrations has been the failure to develop a cheap, readily accessible rapid test. Rapid testing would be more effective in targeted isolation and effective contact tracing. Instead of locking down everyone, we can identify and isolate people who are likely to be carriers / who are shedding virus. Obviously these tests are available, but why weren’t they approved earlier, and why aren’t they being produced, subsidized and deployed on a mass scale?
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[quote quote=5380]A Gallup poll from a couple weeks ago confirms the KFF survey:
There are also other studies correlating counties that voted for Trump with having much lower rates of vaccination. Similarly, counties in California that voted to recall Newsom had much lower rates. Why are Republicans hesitant? I’m sure there’s some “my freedom” element and some correlation with not trusting the government. But as I said several months ago, there’s also a lot of anti-vax propaganda coming from right wing media — and not just the fringe, but mainstream conservative media like Fox. Long story short, I don’t really care what Biden or Psaki have to say about it at this point. I’m sure you can nitpick about things they could have done better, but if I suggest, ask, or beg you to do something — and you have ample time and opportunity to do it — and you still refuse, the fault is not mine.[/quote]The first two politicians that I saw that flat out stated that they wouldn’t get vaccinated were Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Biden during the “town hall.”
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https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/lectures-from-limousine-liberals
A great read (in addition to the NYT op-ed I linked yesterday) about why the rhetoric that the unvaccinated are morally or otherwise inferior / a danger to you isn’t having the effect you may think.
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Biden’s approval rating dumped. Again. Down to 38% from 49% six months ago, and down 1% from last month.
He’s very, very unpopular.
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rogpodge: I had some family in town and was also working full-time, so finally getting a chance to reply to this …
My reading comprehension is fine. I did observe your comment about antibodies, but I took it to mean you had been infected with COVID since most folks who receive a vaccination wouldn’t otherwise get a subsequent blood test to verify antibodies in their blood. I’m sure there are exceptions and perhaps you are one of them. If you were vaccinated I’m glad to hear it. But to be fair, you were being a bit vague about it. You’re welcome to correct my assumptions about the source of your antibodies.
I realize CNN and any number of other left leaning media vilified Trump about the number of deaths for many months. It was political then and was political of Mick to do the same. Quite honestly, if Biden and Harris really were downplaying the virus or their policies were the source of the problem, then I would agree with Mick. But the numbers belie a different story. You can choose to tease out some different conclusion from the data, but it’s simply a fact that conservative adults in large numbers have been hesitant to get vaccinated and not so much on the liberal side. Whatever the reason, it’s quite a stretch to blame that on Biden.
Also, the mashup you posted was mostly out-of-context clips from before the vaccines were rolled out. The context: they were saying they wouldn’t simply trust the word of Trump – the guy who suggested injecting bleach – but said they would be happy to get vaccinated if there was a scientific consensus that the vaccines were safe. And indeed both Biden and Harris subsequently and very publicly did get vaccinated to encourage others to get it – quite the opposite of vaccine fear-mongering that your clips were trying to imply.
On the other hand, there are a lot of conservatives pushing an antivax agenda. Here’s a mashup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEJufOyAbis
You also suggested that I am conflating being anti-vax with vaccine mandates. Actually, I believe it’s just the opposite. I do distinguish between the two. But I believe many conservatives are the ones conflating these two issues. They hear from Fox News and other outlets about the “Orwellian” government (a term you used yourself) and we see in the data and in endless real-life examples that many of them are also anti-vax or fearful of getting vaccinated. I can’t prove they are conflating the two issues, but the Venn Diagram of the two groups no doubt has a significant overlap.
When Trump (to his credit) suggested his supporters should get vaccinated he was booed at rally in Alabama: https://goodwordnews.com/trump-booed-at-rally-in-alabama-after-telling-supporters-to-get-vaccinated/
Something similar happened to Lindsay Graham: https://www.thedailybeast.com/republicans-shout-down-rep-lindsey-graham-for-pushing-vaccine
NO MALARKEY
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Rogpodge: You’re right. I totally missed your vax comment. Mea culpa.
[quote quote=5425]You have, yet again, trotted out another media-created lie that has been debunked over and over. The media made up the whole bleach thing. Show me where Trump used the word bleach?[/quote]
The bleach comment was me providing the context of your “mashup” which had a clip from Kamala Harris from a year ago. She said she would get vaccinated if there was a recommendation from a credible source, but wouldn’t trust someone who recommended injecting bleach. I was paraphrasing for you since you missed the context. Here’s the full clip… And, yes, Trump didn’t use the word bleach. He talked about injecting disinfectant – a semantic difference.
Yes, it’s a complex issue, but you’re downplaying the role conservatives have played in muddying the message about getting vaccinated, mask wearing, and social distancing. I don’t think it’s simply a coincidence that most unvaccinated are conservatives. I suspect you will dismiss this, but a study was just published from U. Penn associating conservative media with a reduced willingness to engage in behaviors to prevent the spread of the virus. On the other hand, consumption of mainstream media, such as A.P. and the WSJ, was associated with greater mask wearing and greater intentions to get vaccinated.
It’s not just Newsmax or Fox. It’s talk show hosts like Dennis Prager, a very popular conservative figure, who advocates getting “natural immunity” by contracting the disease. It’s folks like Marjorie Taylor Green — popular among right wing folks — who has downplayed the number of cases, the idea that many hospitals are or have been overwhelmed by cases, and has downplayed the severity of the disease. It’s people like the four anti-vax conservative talk show hosts who subsequently died of COVID. The list on the right is too long to post here, but I’ll mention a few more:
- GOP Leader Who Fought Against Vaccine Dies After Weekslong Battle With Coronavirus
- Republican Politician Dies of COVID Complications Days After Mocking Virus
- Anti-Mask Florida Official Dies of COVID—and Takes GOP Software Secrets With Him
The list goes on… And there is an entire (misguided) website that tracks anti-vaxxers on social media that later contract the disease. They invariably tend to be conservative. You say it’s complex. And I agree. Many of these folks, for example, are white evangelicals who happen to be Republicans. But at some point it becomes a distinction without a difference when these messages get echoed on conservative media and shared on social media.
I don’t believe this is some kind of mainstream conservative belief. Everyone who works at Fox, for example, if vaccinated. And even most Republican leaders have recommended vaccinations. But it is nevertheless a real problem with conservatism and something that’s expanding beyond the fringe. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that so many other conspiratorial, anti-government things are coming out of the right wing — things like Q-Anon, Three Percenters, Proud Boys, and Oathkeepers. These things aren’t growing out of Joe Biden’s messaging. They are being fomented on the right and have been brewing long before Biden took office, including a lot of this anti-vax messaging.
I agree COVID shouldn’t be politized, but to some degree it’s impossible not to politicize it. Democrats tend to be in favor of vaccine mandates and Republicans aren’t. I think both sides are generally sincere in their beliefs, but obviously those two approaches are at odds and invariably lead to politicization.
Regarding mandates, I think the problem is that COVID has a mortality and chronic disease profile that lies in the grey area between a terrible plague and “just” a typical flu. It’s not quite deadly enough for everyone to take it seriously, but has a mortality rate that is multiple times worse than a typical flu. If it was a few times more deadly or had a disease profile like smallpox there would be no debate — everyone would be deadly serious about vaccine mandates. You wouldn’t dare send your kid to school if their friends weren’t vaccinated. If it was a little less serious and closer to a typical flu I don’t think anyone, including those on the left, would be talking about vaccine mandates.
NO MALARKEY
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BTD, your myopia shows-
we know infection and mortality rates are declining.
we know vaccines protect the vaccinated from others choice- see Psaki.
We know there is significant protections afforded by natural antibodies. Yet public policy largely ignores this fact
We know poorly defined mandates damage/will damage heath and safety services and the economy generally.
yet you say this: “Yes, it’s a complex issue, but you’re downplaying the role conservatives have played in muddying the message about getting vaccinated, mask wearing, and social distancing.”
It is complex. You don’t consider personal freedom issues when misguided policy is being implemented.
keep it simple. Say thanks Trump.
Here's a toast with one last pour, may it last forever and a minute more;
Good fortune seems to you have sung, to live and love way past long
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“It is complex. You don’t consider personal freedom issues when misguided policy is being implemented.”
Consistent liberal mantra. We must sacrifice freedom for safety.
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Perhaps we’ve seen the end of school closures? Mask mandates in schools? Mandatory vaccination for kids?
Thanks Virginia.
Increased parental visibility into school curriculum, an unintended consequence of at home on line learning, is deadlier to the ATF and democratic political ambitions than the CCP virus ever was. Gotta treat parents like mushrooms.
Here's a toast with one last pour, may it last forever and a minute more;
Good fortune seems to you have sung, to live and love way past long -
To the extent anecdotal evidence is of value in this discussion, for your consideration:
Aaron Rodgers says he's listening to Joe Rogan's advice on how to battle COVID-19 and he's also taking Ivermectin.
Prepare for media heads to explode. pic.twitter.com/DXjGJrwif6
— David Hookstead (@dhookstead) November 5, 2021
Aaron Rodgers is dating Shailene Woodley, about as left a person out there. Again, anecdotal evidence is of limited use, but my guess is that, as an athlete, Aaron Rodgers will be fine (as would Ms. Woodley) based on age, fitness, etc.; and that it’s not going to move the needle (pun intended) one way or the other.
On another note: here’s an article about why the US failed at rapid testing.
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